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November 5, 2010
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Most of you saw the post I made yesterday regarding an incident where a transgendered DA user was essentially told to shut up or leave the site because they were unhappy with the "unspecified" gender option being removed and did not wish to choose "male" or "female".

Thanks to your feedback, the people in charge eventually put in some changes to bring back the "other" option. I've decided to go back to using it, myself. :heart: Although this problem has been upsetting for a lot of people, I think it's brought up some much needed discussion, and hopefully everyone- DA staff and users alike- have all learned something.

For example, based on how people reacted to it (or failed to react at all) I now know a bit more about my peers in this community.  Some of you really made me proud and stood up with well-spoken discussions. Some of you were very new to the subject of transphobia and made a sincere effort to educate yourself, which is really great!  And some of you made me cringe in disgust.

And some of you felt strongly enough about the issue to leave the site permanently. =(
I'm very sad to report that one of my best friends and webcomic creator peers, *Rosalarian, has decided to leave DA.  She made a post explaining why, and after reading it/speaking to her, I can understand her reasoning.

I, however, have decided to stay. Like anything in this world, Deviantart certainly has its flaws, and although the PR of the last incident could have been handled differently, I do appreciate that they eventually listened and made a change.  I do love this site, I love the community and the opportunities here!  I love my friends and followers.  But perhaps most importantly, I want to stay in case something like this pops up again.  

The trans community needs some high-profile allies here. (The same goes for any minority group who feels they are being ignored or mistreated.) And trust me, I will speak up for you.

Thank you for eventually listening, DA. And thank you, everyone who spoke up. Together, we made a small, but significant difference, and a step of progression. =)
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:iconmiss-mae:
Miss-Mae Featured By Owner Nov 8, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
I'm pleased to hear that you managed to evoke some change. Bravo! It's great that at least something was done. :)
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:icongawaga:
gawaga Featured By Owner Nov 8, 2010
The more the marketing sector of DA is in control of options like this, and joyfully pops us into limited boxes for apparant ease of research, is actually hindering what they are trying to do in the first place.

Any programmer/designer should be ashamed of arguing about 'why bother'. Lazy A-holes.
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:iconravat:
RavaT Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010
"ze" and "zir"... is there a "Pronunciation font" (sorry, dum dum me has no clue what the right term for that special font is... ) version of how to pronounce these?
Or a voice recording?

BTW, I found more infos here: [link]
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:iconscooby82101:
scooby82101 Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
I'm glad that they changed the features...but it's quite sad that it only happened after people got angry. It's good to know that a lot of people have spoken...but still the mistakes shouldn't have been made.

The guy that acted so ignorant...people like him really need to open their eyes. -__-;

[link] I found this great pic...and it speaks volumes. I don't know if it's the same as the topic...but maybe. ^^;
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:iconbrittaniluv:
BrittaniLuv Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Professional Artist
Yay! I'm glad enough people got together to make DA listen!
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:iconnekio15:
Nekio15 Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010
Nicely said and done, Yamino!

Personally, i consider everyone to be HUMAN first. Gender, rank or religion doesn't matter much to me, as long as you don't push it onto other people, like those horrid gay prides (no offense to those that enjoy those though). Something the Church/Islam needs to learn, stat.
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:iconreidavidson:
ReiDavidson Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Professional Digital Artist
I'm reconsidering my leaving since we've made a bigger impact than I thought we would. I honestly thought we'd be blown off.

I'm caught between "Oh hey look, DA is actually doing something and listening to specific pleas." and "Why did a good chunk of the community have to unite together and post repost and just generally throw a fit before they DID do something?"

If high profile users like you and ~rosalarian hadn't gotten involved would this have had the same result?

Or if the journal that started everything had not been linked as much?

Is DA sorry? Or sorry that we networked so well on the issue?

Will there be consequences for $realitysquared or the other snippy admins?

Is Megan right? Will we just keep having to deal with these issues? Or is it officially over?

it's a lot to think about. And part of me doesn't want to leave. I have been here for 7 years. No Really. I have submitted (get this) over 800 deviations in my time here. And its convenient to stay.

But, it was also convenient for $realitysquared to say "pick a gender or leave" then close the ticket. So I don't know if convenience is the answer here.

Lots to think about.

And by the way, `nokari obviously gets off on being devil's advocate and challenging people in their territory because that's how you get a horde of people arguing with you at once and thus get a lot of attention. So I'd do the opposite and ignore him. He just wanted everyone looking at him, metaphorically speaking, and he got it.
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:iconravat:
RavaT Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010
In my book, dA should realize that :devrealitysquaredL did act wrong and apologise...

Or as I said on the other journal... [link]
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:iconreidavidson:
ReiDavidson Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2010  Professional Digital Artist
I don't see another journal? D:
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:iconravat:
RavaT Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2010
Ups, wrong URL...
That one should do: [link]
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:iconmailem:
mailem Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Professional General Artist
After I read and commented on your other post (thanks for the props in this one btw, yay me!) I immediately went to my profile to check out the options. By the time I did they already had it switched back. Thanks again Yamino for being an ally and a voice for us!!
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:iconkoshou:
Koshou Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Student Digital Artist
wow, `nokari is... wow. I've had run-ins with that guy before and I did not think I could possibly think any lower of him, but boy did he surpassed my expectations. :l

this entire thing has been a mess and I'm glad they're at least doing something about it. The administration here has its problems and they still could have handled it a lot better (and they still owe a lot of people an apology) but I think things will get better from now on.
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:iconravat:
RavaT Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010
Sometimes it is good to be surprised... and sometimes, less good, yesyes... :la:
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:iconseptember-oreo-thief:
September-Oreo-Thief Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010
The "Other" option should never be removed as I believe that if you or I are on the internet we should be free to show the world what we wish to show and also be free to conceal what we want concealed. We can be as anonymous as we want to be.
Do we really "need" to know the gender of the individual who's gallery we are looking at? Do we really need to know which country/state/city or town they live in?
No.
Are we free to share it if we wish?
Yes.
Would I look into a gallery of a transgendered individual, knowingly?
Yes, especially if the thumbnails on their main page interest me.
Would I be upset if I discovered an artist isn't the individual I perceived in my mind's eye?
I may be surprised, then I'll wonder what led me to believe how I arrived at my earlier perceptions...
You fought a good fight for what to me is obviously right. Thank you.
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:iconrudolfs0807:
Rudolfs0807 Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Student Digital Artist
that one dude's comments weren't really hateful or bigoted, i think he was just ignorent on the subject. and there is a lot of hate on this site tho, check out this dude's page :iconi-take-it-back: i dont know if he's just a well disguised troll doing it for the lulz but either way it is extremly offensive.
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:iconyamino:
Yamino Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Professional Digital Artist
I think it was pretty bigoted, considering how he was repeatedly corrected and kept rebutting with the same insensitive BS. He really came off like a troll.
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:iconrudolfs0807:
Rudolfs0807 Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Student Digital Artist
yeah i guess. i just dont understand the hatred! the way i see it, if that's what floats your bat, so to speak, it's no buisness of mine! i still think homosexuality and transexual stuff is a little odd, but i really dont have a problem with it!
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:iconaym-bear:
Aym-bear Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010
Just an aside: a lot of transgender individuals REALLY dislike the word "transgendered". "Transgendered" is in verb form, not an adjective like "transgender" is. "Transgendered" implies that being trans is something that is done to you, not who you are. I am no more "transgendered" than I am "pansexualed" or "whited".
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:iconmailem:
mailem Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Professional General Artist
For the record, we (well at least I) couldn't really care less about being called transgendered. Yes the more correct term is trans, but really the only main reason to that is because transgendered as an umbrella term came around to meaning those transitioning even though that's not always the case. So it was shortened to trans to try to recreated another umbrella term. though personally they both mean the same, and the switch cause more confusion than anything.
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:iconaym-bear:
Aym-bear Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010
I don't feel like I made this clear enough: the people I listed earlier (including myself) all identify as transgender.
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:iconmailem:
mailem Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Professional General Artist
Fair enough, hence my making sure I put it down as my opinion. I can see how people would take offense to it, and don't judge, condemn or celebrate in any form. I was just stating that for myself it's not that big of a deal. With the way language changes and evolves, with slag and changes in word pronunciation I (again, just my view) never really care about how a word is altered.
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:iconaym-bear:
Aym-bear Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010
While that is your personal preference, my girlfriend, her roommate, 3 of my other friends, me, and a huge part of the trans community find the term "transgendered" highly problematic and offensive. "Transgender" is the accepted umbrella term you're thinking of. Dr. Jillian Weiss, a trans woman who writes for the Bilerico Project, has written a LOT about this. [link]
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:iconyamino:
Yamino Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Professional Digital Artist
What would be the right term to use instead? Just plain "trans"? Isn't that basically a short version of the same word?
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:iconaym-bear:
Aym-bear Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010
Trans is a shortened form of the word "transgender," which is generally accepted as the correct term to use.

In an article on the Bilerico Project, Dr. Jillian Weiss, a trans woman, says "...'transgendered' is a problematic term... 'Transgender' is considered an adjective, not a noun. That means that there are no 'transgendered' people, only transgender people, just as there are no 'gayed' people or 'lesbianed' people."
( [link] )
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:iconsillysisshisunshine:
SillySisshiSunshine Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010
I've had someone insist that he knew more shit about my own religion. Being Jewish I'm in a minority myself and I had one employer (I didn't get that job) That after saying the company makes exceptions to religious hollidays told me that he wouldn't let me have evenings of Hanukkah off but he'd give me Christmas eve/day off....there was a really long thing of him pretty much trashing Judism but I won't go into it.

I'd be rich if I had a nickel for everytime someone told me I was dammed for not accepting Jesus -.-
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:iconcei-ellem:
Cei-Ellem Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
And this is one of the reasons I enjoy DA: despite the controversy, they actually listened to users and worked out an agreeable solution. It's sad that it couldn't be resolved less vocally, but that they took mature action is remarkable. It makes you feel less like one of the faceless masses and more like a member of a community.
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:iconyamino:
Yamino Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Professional Digital Artist
Agreed. Although honestly, I don't see why there was a need to remove the option that was already there, except perhaps in an effort to make more targeted ads, like Facebook. =/
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:iconcei-ellem:
Cei-Ellem Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Hobbyist Writer
It was definitely one of those idiot moments from DA. As for ads... that is why I love the Adblock Plus add-on for Firefox.
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:iconyrpotaku169:
YRPOtaku169 Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Student Writer
Yay! We changed the world!
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:iconsleepykiks:
SleepyKiks Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Professional General Artist
I am glad this issue has been resolved but saddened Megan left. Deviantart lost a great community member over an issue that never should have happened in the first place -.-
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:iconkeystar01:
Keystar01 Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2010
I, too, Agree.
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:iconfrostedswitchblade:
FrostedSwitchblade Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010
Also (sorry for the doublepost), wasn't the person in question gender-neutral? There's a distinction between that and trans.
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:iconaym-bear:
Aym-bear Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010
The word "transgender" is an umbrella term that encompasses a wide range of gender non-conformity. It doesn't just refer to FtMs and MtFs.
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:iconyamino:
Yamino Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Professional Digital Artist
You're right, I should revise that. I think I used the word trans because I was thinking of the community as a whole when I wrote this. o-o
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:iconfrostedswitchblade:
FrostedSwitchblade Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010
I'm so glad you've chosen to stay and change things. I was sad to see Rosalarian go, and it would've only made it worse if you'd decided to join her. I'm still upset with the site, but the fact is that it's a company, and the ignorance of a couple higher-ups can't be used to generalize with the entire site. The fact that they changed the gender options mostly rights things in my eyes.
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:iconsongwind:
Songwind Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Ah, I didn't realize they had put "other" back. I thought they had just switched "Gender" to "Sex" and left it at that.

Bravo.
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:iconsecondlina:
secondlina Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010
I agree with you on that - if everybody takes off when an issue comes up, nobody will try to solve said issue, thus resulting in a permanent application of said offensive rules. It's like saying "gay people/immigrants/woman who feel they have no rights in their town should just move". No. They should stay and fight. You need to inform people about why it's wrong. For instance, I myself didn't get it at first. But now I do. And you have a new supporter.

As they say " Sometimes problems are opportunities is disguise"

That's still so rude and shitty PR though.
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:iconclock-workable:
Clock-workable Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I only recently heard about this appalling behavior from Deviantart staff only just recently, and to be quite franked. I was shocked and appauled.

you'd think a website that main objective is to be a collborative community would show some common decentcy to people with diffrent views on their life and body.

But I am glad that the issue had been resolved, but to the cost of some great artist. I only wish DA could of sorted this issue quicker and with less blind ignorance.
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:iconscarabdynasty1:
ScarabDynasty1 Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I'm glad that the problem has been solved :) I consdier this a small step in the right direction. And in the end, I guess the whole universe is built on small steps.

Thanks for bringing the issue to my attention.
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:iconlinneakou:
LinneaKou Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Put a small "yay" in for me, folks. Any step forward is a good step.
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:icontime-pirate:
Time-Pirate Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Student General Artist
I didn't post on the previous journal, seeing as it seemed like some discussions got out of hand and the monsters of the world were revealing themselves through ignorance and lack of understanding.

But I am very happy that the issue has been solved. I'm sorry that we have lost a few people in the process though. What DA did was inexcusable, and they should learn from their mistakes.

I am cisfemale, but I have many transgender friends who mean a lot to me, so some of people's behaviour on your previous journal really disgusted me. I'm sad that DA had behaved like they did, especially since their Spirit Day theme.
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:iconcatrionamalfoy:
CatrionaMalfoy Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Student Digital Artist
What does cisfemale mean? I don't mean to be rude, I've just never heard the term before.

I didn't see the previous journal post, I've been having trouble accessing certain parts of dA for a while for some reason on my comp. But I have a friend who's considering getting the surgery, and I'm fine with it, I just want her to be happy, whether I call her Kat or Dean. Of course, my early exposure to Ranma 1/2 might have something to do with how little I think such a thing should be a big deal. I mean personally sure, but I don't think other people should have any say in it, if that makes sense.
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:icontime-pirate:
Time-Pirate Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Student General Artist
Cisfemale means that I am biologically (and fine with that) female. Cismale means the same but male. C: Don't worry, I only came across the term a year ago when I joined a LGBTQ forum.

I've always held an open mind about things, and I like to think that people have a right to be whoever they want to be, and love whoever they want to love. If a friend of mine wants to be female or male (or neither/both), I see no reason why I should be against that. It makes them happy and it doesn't harm anyone.

Everyone deserves to be happy and be who they are and no-one has any right to take that away from anyone.
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:iconcatrionamalfoy:
CatrionaMalfoy Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2010  Student Digital Artist
Exactly what I think! :D Thank you for the definition, I wonder where the cis part comes from? Anagram maybe? Hmm... But yeah, I mean I'm a lesbian myself, but I don't feel like anyone has the right to tell anyone else what to do in respect to what their bodies look like. I saw a guy shoe shopping in the woman's department the other day with his wife and daughter, they were helping him pick out shoes. It was really adorable. I asked if it was for Halloween (not because I have anything against cross dressers, just because I didn't want a predictable white male reaction if he wasn't) and his wife laughed and said no, her husband just likes dressing in woman's clothing. It was so funny (except he had smaller feet than me. V_V) because they were all so happy and casual about it, it just made me happy to be around them. ^_^
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:icontime-pirate:
Time-Pirate Featured By Owner Nov 7, 2010  Student General Artist
I'm no too sure when the cis part came from, TBH!

That is a wonderful story! :D It makes me happy that some people are open and happy about themselves. One of my trans friends asked me to go with her to her gender therapist for the first time, as she was so nervous. And to celebrate afterwards I took her to buy her some make up. She was so shy about it, even though it was late and not many people were around, and I ended up 'buying' the make up for her. It made me a little sad that she was scared about what people would think about her.
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:iconcatrionamalfoy:
CatrionaMalfoy Featured By Owner Nov 7, 2010  Student Digital Artist
It sucks that people get so worked over that sorta thing. My Dad was even ok with it, he kinda laughed, but he was like, "Well if the wife knows and is ok with it *shrug* but how do you find these people?" He thinks I am a magnet. He doesn't mean "these people" in an offensive way, he's just really conservative normally, so it's a bit of a stretch for him.
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:icontime-pirate:
Time-Pirate Featured By Owner Nov 7, 2010  Student General Artist
XD Haha, maybe. <3 Sometimes some people just give off the right feeling.
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:iconcrimson-cat:
crimson-cat Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I'm glad things finally got changed back. :3 Thanks to you too for bringing to light this issue.
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:iconnovur:
Novur Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010
Out of curiosity, what set of pronouns should be used when referring to a gender neutral person?
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:icondominusshay:
DominusShay Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I think 'hir' is the most common. I've seen it be used most often then 'ze' or 'zir'. English is so limited when it comes to this xD
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